You can adjust the AFR but what are you adjusting it to if you don't know what you have, ie, the AFR table can say 13.5:1 but if your VE table isn't correct that 13.5:1 means nothing. To get the AFR table synchronized you have to adjust the VE tables, if you don't know what the AFR is coming out the tail pipeyou don't know where or which way to go with the VE tables.

The maps you buy from other web sites are still only a canned map for an configuration closer to your's.....nothing is saying that map has the correct VE for your build.....it's a better starting place for a good Dyno Tune. Problem is most people don't know what a properly tuned motor cycle feels like and they are happy with a canned map that might be running fuel in the 15:1 or 11:1 AFR, once you ride a bike tuned right there is no comparisonand I mean no comparison. (the difference is night and day)

 

ok thanks... my self i have all my stuff dynoed.... i have played with the software but i don't even want to try to play with any tables then load it on my bike.... that is what i pay people like you to do....lol

 

Doc, am a little bit confused. How does one get AFR coming out the pipes? Is there i device one can purchase n hook up to his/her laptop to find out these figures? Thank

 

Yes...

Go to Daytona twin tech's website.

 

As the bike is being tuned on the Dyno we install a probe up the pipe (front and rear) reading what AFR is coming out of the cylinder. If we request say 13.5:1 from the ECM in the Fuel Table then we should get 13.5:1 reading out of the cylinder....if it is richer than 13.5 or leaner than 13.5 we adjust the VE tables until we see 13.5 out the pipe.This process is called Synchronizing the VE and Fuel tables. When this process is completed I can ask the ECM (by entering a value in the Fuel Table) for 14.2 in any grid and it will give me 14.2, if I ask for 12.5I will get 12.5 and so on. This is why I say you can't tune unless you have all the informationor Data to tune with andknowing the AFRyou have coming out of the engine is a very important piece of information you need but don't have by just riding and recording Data.
DTT makes a tool that you can monitor the AFR coming from your engine as you ride called a WEGO, if you have 02 sensors now they are replaced with a wide band sensor (from the WEGO system) and you collect the data you need for tuning. I never used this so I might have the name wrong but I'm sure some one will chime in and correct me.
Bottom line is you can't beat the Dyno for tuning because your in a controlled environment with the ability to load the bike and hold it at your desired rpm for testing.
Hope this helps and didn't confuse you more.

 

thanks for the class Doc 1 we can never have too much info against the bad tunners... too bad MOCO will not train their tunners better.... most just think 2hrs and about 8 runs and you are good to go. when i get the 1,000 miles on my build and have it dyno'd i'll hit you up and send a copy of the map/i told them i want a copy.. but i should have it by the 15/16th

 

Doc, since you seam to be a straight shooter, I have a little cenario for ya, if you wouldnt mind givin a novice at rodin a 1200 EFI some advice, and you sound like you know what your doin with a tune.

I've been riding all my life (sinceI was 10 anyway) but really have never dove into the engine of my harley before. I've always just bought whatI wanted had some one rod it outand left it alone untilI wanted something else. But when I saw the Nightsterin 06 I new it had some serious potentil as far as looks went for what I like in a scoot (I am an old school bobber fan), so I bought one as soon as they hit theshowroom floor and I have been transforming it over the last year.I have messed with carbed models in thepast like my old pan head but this new EFI (this is my first EFI Harley) has me a little concerned with the thingsI am about to do to it. I travel alot haulin my bike with me for the chance to ride when i am not workin,and hit HD shops all over the frikin place, and dont have a singlular shop or wrench to take it too, soI am feelin like some of the adviceI get may be crap ontop of crap, wrapped in crap, covered by,, well,,, CRAP!

The first thing I did when I rode it home was change the pipes to Rineharts so I could hear thelittle bastagewileI was going down the road, since it doesnt have a tach. Plus I am an old schooler and believer that "Load pipes, Save Lives". I know it gave it a couple HPs but thats about it and I really havent done anything else to the thing performance wise yet, until this week comin up, now that it has been broken in and had its 2500 mi tune, all was good but
Iwant to make the little thang run like you know what!

So anyway, this week I am putting on the following parts that will effect the already high compression heads (the first of the crap tales that these stock heads are actually better then the SE heads, which may be true..???) and lean mixture from the factory, (second line of crap, that the bike comes stock with a stage 1 map but not the stage one breather assembly) anyway... I digress

SE Heavy Breather hp intake (lots more cold air in)
Vance&Hines Short Shot Staggered Blacks,loud baffled if any(lots more hot air out)
and the new SE Super Tuner (so it can be mapped to the air and altitudechangesI am always going though with all the traveling)

All that being said,and knowing that i cant have it dynoed every time iget to a new town in a different area of the country. What advice would you give soI can try not to burn holes in the pistons by listening tosome maroontrying to sell me a new part that I dont need. I do want to get the most out of the little rod but dont want to put another 10k in the motor, after all i am not racing it, just want it to go faster then most stockers do.

Cole

 

Mr Cole...that sir is some first post you have there....I will be back to answer your questions this afternoon ( got to get going to Church now)
Doc

 

First off, without exhaust readings while tuning you are throwing darts blindfolded,all fun and games till someone loses an eye, the Twinscan/WEGO setup is an awesome tool, the drawbacks are as doc said, without a dyno, getting the engine load where you want it to get to the various areas of the map that may need adjusting can be tough, not to mention you are ripping up the highway well in excess of the speed limit to do data runs. Now, as for the supertuner and its ability to data log, I can think of one scenario that it would be great for, lets say you have a tad bit of pinging when you get less than optimum gas,it would enable you to pinpoint the cells to adjust to take a tad bit of timing out by viewing the data log. But, if you have a tuner like doc that does it right the first time he will allow a little buffer on the timing advance for just such an occasion as crappy gas.

 

I agree with what Bob said...if the tune is done correctly going from town to town and from one side of the country to the other will not make a difference, ie you won't need a tune at every spot. The MAP sensor has a dual role, when you turn on the ignition (and wait for the pump to go off) the MAP sensor acts like a BARO sensor and reads the allitude...with this you can go from sea level to Denver without getting another tune.

The People that say the stock heads are as good as the SE heads don't know too much about air flow, what they do see is the peak tq numbers being close to each other in some cases so they think they aren't worth the money....what most people don't see or understand is how long those peak numbers are under the tq curve. In other words is the tq at 100lbs at 3000 to 3500 rpms with stock heads vs tq being at 100lbs from 2500 to 5500rpms with a set of flowed heads. Stock heads produce the same 100 ftlbs for 500rpms where flowed heads will give you the 100ft lbs for 2000 to 3000 rpms.

I posted 5 questions to ask your tuner in a Sticky up above..( https://www.hdforums.com/m_3162234/tm.htm )...look at those questions and if your tuner can't answer all of them quickly and correctly DON'T let him/her touch your bike.

I hope Bob and myself answered your question.
Doc